I get so tired of hearing about Ben Roth.... He is a pretty good NFL quarterback that would have been sitting the bench on a ton of bad teams. They win because their DEFENSE is freakin' great. Somehow, he gets credit. I don't remember Dilfer getting credit for the Raven's wins or Brad Johnson for the Bucks. Here are some season #'s removing one good year from Brad Johnson and Big Be... tell me why he is the Great One:
Ben
Completion % Yards TD INT
59.9% 3301 17 15
59.7% 3513 18 23
62.7% 2385 17 9
66.4% 2621 17 11
Brad Johnson (starting 10 or more games with solid D's)
60.9% 4005 24 13
62.5% 2505 11 15
60.8% 3406 13 11
62.3% 3049 22 6
BTW:
54.8% 2608 18 12 KC went out and got a new QB
58.5% 2972 18 12 Bear went out and got a new QB
64.9% 2712 12 6 In 11 starts - TB released him
62.3% 3245 13 6 Redskins have gone after every available QB
Throw a ton of other players in this list with as good if not better numbers and ability than Big Ben that have been cut, traded or booed... but he's a Hall of Famer????
QBs get WAY too much credit for winning and WAY too much blame for losing. You think Marino wouldn't have had 6-7 rings with the Bears' or Steelers' D? Of course he would have. It takes way too much for a TEAM to win a football game than for the QB to get that much praise. The numbers don't lie.
Yeah, I don't get it either why Big Ben gets a lot of credit.
Yeah, I don't get it either why Big Ben gets a lot of credit.
It took 26 year to get #5 and the dude has won 2 in 5 years. That's why.
I get so tired of hearing about Ben Roth.... He is a pretty good NFL quarterback that would have been sitting the bench on a ton of bad teams. They win because their DEFENSE is freakin' great. Somehow, he gets credit. I don't remember Dilfer getting credit for the Raven's wins or Brad Johnson for the Bucks.
Hawks fan-
1) What teams would he be sitting on the bench for? I count 2: New England and Indianapolis.
2) The Steelers win because their defense is great AND their offense is good enough to win the Super Bowl.
Throughout the 90s the Steelers had 6 top ten defenses and 2000 to 2003 they had a top 10 defense. Across these 14 seasons the Steelers had 8 postseason appearances and 0 Superbowls with the likes of Neil O Donnel and Kordell Stewart and a few other not so good QBs.
Enter Ben Roethlisberger in 2004, who precedes to put up a 51-20 regular season record and an 8-2 postseason record including 2 Super Bowl victories in his first five seasons. Not to mention an 89.4 QB rating in the reg and 87.2 in the post. Thats why he gets the credit because he wins where others could not! And by all means he certainly deserves every bit of the credit he recieves.
FearWare,
Nice well thought out "Why Not" post, now let me tell you why it doesn't matter. Hate like love, is an emotion, one of the strongest. While your reasons are all good and logical, hate doesn't function on that level. Do you think it does? Maybe some times, but mostly it has logical roots(sometimes only logical to the hater) but the hatred is a lizard brain thing without care for logic. So I would, for example hate Irvin for being a snow mustache, and thereby hate the Cowboys because he was a member (although with Irvin, that's just the tip of the hate iceberg) of that team, even though I might have indulged in that behaviour myself. (I also may not have, this example is for demonstration only).
Solomon
I have reposted your original post here because I have been gone for a few days, and so that recent posters would have a better understanding of what I'm talking about.
My " Why Not " post was not aimed at you, moreso the poster who did his due dilegence on the criminal history of Cowboy's players, although many of them were not only employed by other teams as well, but a couple deemed bipolar or mentally unstable ( not their fault, by the way ).
My post had nothing to do with love, or hate, or any other emotion, on this particular post...Just a statement of facts. I will certainly not deny that the Cowboys, and JJ in particular, has not hesitated to hire those with criminal backgrounds. But so do roofing companies, and restaurants, and Fortune 500 companies for that matter....As long as they are elgible for employment according to to the law, then they have a right to make a living. I manage people for a living, and while I consider their character before I hire them, I am expected to put " the best possible team on the field" that I can.
I will repeat myself in saying that I wish every pro football player were a model citizen, but not because they play football, because I wish everyone was a model citizen, regardless of profession.
Let me pose this question to you, and on your honor, I expect an honest response...If your refrigerator breaks down, and a guy that has a criminal record will fix it for $75,in a situation that poses no threat to you or your family, will you really choose the guy that will do the same job for $135 and has no criminal record?
The NFL is a private enterprise, not a public company, and are free to choose whomever they please to employ based on their rules of conduct...If they are deemed elgible by the league for employment, and can help the team win, it seems to me that it would be irresponsible not to do so, provided you protect yourself.....Which the Cowboys have done. The draft pick we gave up for Pacman, we got back because JJ structured the deal in such a manner...sounds to me like he's learned something...
Sorry RAM-N IT...But you asked for it...
I hate the Dallas Cowboys, Why well lets see. It's not so much the Cowboys team and their players as much as it's thier FANS, They beleive that the Cowboys are Americas Team, and Gods Team. How pathetic can you fans be.
The term " America's Team " was was coined by the staff of NFL Films, an independent and impartial sourece, not Cowboy's fans or management....If the shoe fits, kid....
The only cowboy player who I really hate is Michael Irving.
Irving is the name of the town I grew up in, not the name of the player you hate, whose last name is Irvin....And by thw way, he wasn't the only NFL player ever arressted....Why didn't you mention the rest of them as well?
You wanna hate the Cowboys, get in line....But be a little more informed an objective with your reasons...
Yeah, I don't get it either why Big Ben gets a lot of credit.
It took 26 year to get #5 and the dude has won 2 in 5 years. That's why.
Bart Starr, Green Bay Packers Hall of Famer, he was a great QB and rightly deserved to be in the Hall.
Joe Namath, New York Jets Hall of Famer but his numbers were dreadful even for his era.
Len Dawson, Kansas City Chiefs Hall of Famer with great statistics for his era.
Johnny Unitas, Baltimore Colts Hall of Famer known for being ahead of his time with the way he played QB.
Roger Staubach, Dallas Cowboys Hall of Famer stunted by his navy career and not being a starter until his third year, he had really good statistics for his era. Two Super Bowl wins clinched his spot.
Bob Griese, Miami Dolphins Second two time winner of the Super Bowl, another era QB in the Hall, much like Namath but with better numbers.
Terry Bradshaw, Pittsburgh Steelers 4 time Super Bowl winner is a shoe in Hall of Famer, not only for his era but for his leadership and for the rings. His statistics were marginal for what we see today but he won, he also had 4 more AFC Championship games under his belt.
Ken Stabler, Oakland Raiders Not a Hall of Famer, but he was a gamer.
Jim Plunkett, Oakland Raiders Another miss for the Hall, he was a good QB but now we are nearing the age of the passing game euqualizing the running game. The only two time Super Bowl winner not in the Hall of Fame, dictating the new age he may have unfortunatey crossed.
Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers Hall of Famer with 4 Trophies like Bradshaw, he showed what the modern QB should show, the field general with terrific numbers across the board.
Joe Theismann, Washington Redskins - No Hall, but a terrific system QB led by old school thinking of run first, manage the game with a QB second.
Jim McMahon, Chicago Bears Not in the Hall, nor should he be. This team was led by two monsters, the defense and Walter.
Phil Simms, New York Giants Not a hall of Famer, but he is one of those guys on the fence, his success is connected to LT and the defense not to mention pedestrian numbers in the new day and age.
Doug Williams, Washington Redskins - No Hall, but was one hell of a QB for a few years and he is a part of Gibbs' manufacturing dream seasons.
Jeff Hostetler, New York Giants The poor mans Ken Stabler.
Mark Rypien, Washington Redskins The final puzzle to the run the Redskins had.
Troy Aikman, Dallas Cowboys - Hall of Famer, three time champ helped him into the Hall, his numbers were good, sometimes great but his calling into the hall was his rings and assistance from the NFL rushing leader Emmitt Smith.
Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers - Hall of Famer, proving the Montana legacy to fruition, he had superb career numbers.
Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers - He will be in the Hall of Fame...if there is doubt, you are a clown. He may have never won another Super Bowl but he reinvigorated the only town in the NFL into the being a part of the NFL limelight.
John Elway, Denver Broncos Hall of Famer and he should be, the monkey off his back with so many close calls, Elway was one of the most intimidating QB's ever.
Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams Late bloomer, he could be a Hall of Famer if for no other reason than he has gotten three teams close to or winning the Super Bowl with his arm, something many QB's in the Hall or those just outside Canton can't say.
Trent Dilfer, Baltimore Ravens System QB, not in the Hall nor will he be, he did have decent career numbers,better than Namath.
Tom Brady, New England Patriots 3 Super Bowl wins and counting, we shall see. He has had terrific seasons, above and beyond most other signal callers in this era.
Brad Johnson, Tampa Bay Buccaneers Super Bowl winner in name only, this is another QB with a respectable career but a hall of Famer? No way! Not in any era.
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers Two titles, his statistics are suspect but his winning percentage and knack for winning when it counts brigns levity towards his Hall of Fame status. I would, at this point note him as another Jim Plunkett.
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts The best QB of this generation, he cinched a Hall of Fame nod with this win and his other worldy statistics.
Eli Manning, New York Giants His jury is still out.
The other QB's in the Hall of Fame considered modern QB's:
Blanda- a scoring machine, he was not the winning QB for the Raiders as QB but he experienced success as a winner not to mention being one of the most multi talented and most endurable players of all time.
Dan Fouts- He is one of the forefathers to the way we foresee success in a QB now. Though he never reached a Super Bowl, he led some really good Charger teams who in no way would have been in contention without him and the rest of the offense.
Otto Graham- Pre Super Bowl and a pioneer in his craft, leading the Browns to 10 out of 10 titles pre Super Bowl.
Jim Kelly- FOUR Super Bowls in a row. All losses, but in a row. Just like Fran Tarkenton also deservedly in the Hall. Both are in because they were really good QB's, Tarkenton was better stasts wise but kelly is in for being a winner year in and year out with not only a good supporting cast but really good numbers.
Dan Marino-one Super Bowl loss and many records not broken or will never be broken for years. If he is not considered one of the best, please say why. he was a part of the Dolphins who may not have gotten to the Super bowl year after year but he was also part of the new playoff formats not to mention he won a lot of games, consistantly.
Warren Moon- Why he is not recognized for aiding a bunch of black QB's to where they are presently is a shame, this man was the quintessential QB like Marino. He never tasted even getting to the Super Bowl like Fouts, but he broke barriers noone since him can in terms of race.
There are a few others as noted as being modern day QB's but these are the best. The point being on this matter is simple, we have different eras with different criteria concerning why a person gets into the Hall of Fame. Every man who is in has reasons for being in the Hall of Fame, I do not see, at the present time, why Big Ben deserves to be in the Hall. The only reason Joe Namath is in is beacuse his AFL team beat an NFL team, otherwise he is probably the only person in the Hall not worthy of being thought of. Big ben now is at the point he has two rings like Plunkett, but less than Brady. If you think he is better than Brady, on the fence Warner, Drew Bledsoe and others you are not looking at the big picture.
sdecker, I'm about two-thirds with you on those rants -- I've been a Cowboys fan since about '73, so obviously I still have built-in resistance to the Steelers -- and I can totally understand people who despised the "America's Team" stuff AND the post-Landry era Cowboys.
That said, I was irritated about the Steelers-Seahawks Super Bowl because the Seahawks have been my second-favorite team since Seattle was an expansion team -- and not only did I have to watch one of my teams lose again to Pittsburgh, I thought there was some crud officiating in that game. I hate whining about officiating, but I'd rather have just lost on merit alone.
I strayed a little from the original "rules" for the thread -- I have some longtime "franchise dislike" that plays into it. Lots of it stems from early fan experience -- you know, when you're a kid you tend to hate any successful team that gets in the way of your team's title hopes -- which, if you were a Cowboys fan in from the '70s onward, you tend to hold onto bad feelings about the Vikings, 49ers, Steelers, Eagles, Redskins (of course!) etc.
It's a little different now because I'm not quite so intense about it, being an olde ******* -- but I can still dislike teams because of their coach, their uniforms, certain players. It's all good fun.
Good knowledge, good research, good opinions...
....So, which team do you hate?...
I already posted about my built-in dislike of the Steelers. I can be more specific -- partly historical "hate" and some more recent stuff.
Past Tense:
'85 Bears. Awesome team, that year, no doubt -- but a one-hit wonder. And I've never liked Ditka. Yeah, he played for the Cowboys, but I've despised plenty of Cowboys players over the years (Hollywood Henderson, Terrell Owens, all the stiffs at quarterback after Troy Aikman, etc.).
Buddy Ryan-era Eagles. Buddy Ryan-era anything, really.
Jerry Glanville-era Falcons.
Present-day:
Colts: Peyton Manning is talented. But could he call a damn play in the huddle once in a while? Watching the Colts offense is like waiting to dry-heave. But, I still think the Colts' helmets are the best, though. So that helps somewhat.
Jaguars: Probably because of "defense-oriented" gameplan. I love to watch 10-6 shootouts as much as the next guy, but ...
Tampa Bay: Bucs were cooler when they were perennial doormats and had prissy-looking uniforms.
Bears: Partly because the fan base will never be happy unless God Almighty is the signal-caller. And even then, an errant pass at the wrong time could spell doom. Also, recent success hinges on ball control and defensive "prowess" (see Jaguars). Even 100-yard INT returns get boring after a while.
Titans: Love their uniforms, hate their helmets (sort of the reverse of the father franchise, the Houston Oilers). Used to think Fisher was a good coach, but now I don't know: do his teams overachieve or underachieve? Could he maybe pick one or the other?
Cowboys: Yep, my all-time favorite team, and I hate them. Some of it's for stereotypical reasons (they're the ****ing Cowboys!) but also because of crappy personnel decisions, mostly involving coaches or overrated schmucks like Terrell Owens. And I'd prefer Jerry Jones sit up in the press box during games like a normal brain-dead NFL owner, instead of pretending he's Mark Cuban.
No..You shouldn't hate any ONE....But I don't see that there is anything wrong with hating teams.
You qualify your remarks, but really, if you are a Skins fan...Than you have to hate the rest of the NFC East.
I don't presume to speak for you, but it looks like, from your last post...You'll have a shot of hate for the Eagles and Giants, and a double shot of hate for the Boys....
...Just let it out, you'll feel better...
Hawks fan- 1) What teams would he be sitting on the bench for? I count 2: New England and Indianapolis. I just gave 5 QBs with better numbers that most likely would have won 2 SB in 5 years with the Steelers but were released or benched on their respective teams. I think Ben is the product of the unbelievable Steeler D and the unbelievable Steeler Hype Machine.
I despise three teams, The Packers, Raiders and Dallas.
The Packers are #1 to despise.
1) They're a good team and the Vikings haven't dominated them since '97
2) They have what I want- Rings!
3) Brett Favre
4) Sterling Sharpe.
Raiders are #2
Not to disagree with Sol, but the Raiders have employed the most thugs in NFL history!
Dallas because they have started to emulate the Raiders. I say started because Oakland has been doing what Dallas is doing for far longer. Dallas has employed thugs for only 20 years.
I get so tired of hearing about Ben Roth....
Hey Jealousy!
Hey Jealousy,
Hey Jeasousy.
Just win baby!
BTW, how many times did those other qbs lead the league in 4th qtr comebacks, since they entered the league?
How many compare to Ben's passer rating?
Stop living in fantasy football land and get real.
FearWare,
Let me pose this question to you, and on your honor, I expect an honest response...If your refrigerator breaks down, and a guy that has a criminal record will fix it for $75,in a situation that poses no threat to you or your family, will you really choose the guy that will do the same job for $135 and has no criminal record?
Good question, but the analogy is a little off. (only because the "criminals" were the ones being paid more than the non-criminals, because THEY (the "criminal") actual had more skills. But anyhow:
It really would depend, if the "criminal" was a violent felon, I'd pay the extra to keep the "criminal" out of my house and away from my family, but if the crime involved (assuming I'd even know what it was) were non violent and non theft oriented, I'd take the cheaper "criminal" guy.
If A-Rod keeps having seasons like he just did, Big Ben would be sitting down on the bench to A-Rod as well.
Not to disagree with Sol, but the Raiders have employed the most thugs in NFL history!
Yeah hosers9, sheer numbers, probably, but I think Dallas' thugs have been more sucessfull, hence easier to hate.
